The community is dead by the way with no one posting any new posts since a few months now.
I followed this link into my conclusions. The detailed discussion is backed up below:
08/10/2009
Hawking
Quran is undisputed and Unaltered?
The owner of this community 'Fawad' closed a thread of mine 'Quran really has miracles???' in the communityhttp://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cm
The reason was that I didn't rebut the 'Miracle' of Quran which he never posted. All he was saying that 'Quran' itself is a miracle and didn't say why. But as he usually does. He closed it and asked me to open a new one in this community
He never said what the miracle is until the final statement after which the thread was closed.
Bring any other book, which is as undisputed, unaltered and as extremely preserved as Qura'an, and was revealed in 7th Century. You can't. There is your miracle, if you'd like to call it. But again, for me, all the characteristics of the book itself is what fascinates me and is a miracle for me. But you didn't study Qura'an at all. So for your information, there are predictions in Qura'an as well, which came true during prophet's era, which you would certainly find, had you studied the Qura'an, and that alone would be enough for you to consider Qura'an as miracle. So there you go.
The reason was that I didn't rebut the 'Miracle' of Quran which he never posted. All he was saying that 'Quran' itself is a miracle and didn't say why. But as he usually does. He closed it and asked me to open a new one in this community
He never said what the miracle is until the final statement after which the thread was closed.
Bring any other book, which is as undisputed, unaltered and as extremely preserved as Qura'an, and was revealed in 7th Century. You can't. There is your miracle, if you'd like to call it. But again, for me, all the characteristics of the book itself is what fascinates me and is a miracle for me. But you didn't study Qura'an at all. So for your information, there are predictions in Qura'an as well, which came true during prophet's era, which you would certainly find, had you studied the Qura'an, and that alone would be enough for you to consider Qura'an as miracle. So there you go.
08/10/2009
Hawking
But even the most carefully edited 'Sahihs' have evidences to disprove his claim.
Sahih Muslim
-----------
Book 004, Hadith Number 1799.
------------------------------
Chapter : Reciting the Qur'an.....
'Alqama reported. We went to Syria and Abu Darda' came to us and said: Is there anyone among you who recites according to the recitation of Abdullah? I said: Yes, it is I. He again said: How did you hear 'Abdullah reciting this verse: (wa'l-lail-i-idha yaghsha = when the night covers)? He ('Alqama) said: I heard him reciting it (like this) (wa'l-lail-i-idha yaghsha) wa-dhakar wal untha = when the night covers and the males and the females). Upon this he said: By Allah, I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) reciting in this way, but they (the Muslims of Syria) desire us to recite: (wa ma khalaqa), but I do not yield to their desire.
Anything to say?
08/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
The stated Hadith just tells us one companion(RA) said and stopped everyone to make additions to Qura'an. Some history lesson for you:
Qura'an is compiled in one book format after the prophet's death, before that, prophet instructed specifically assigned companions(RA) to write it down upon every revelation, such companion(RA) is called Katib-e-Wahi.
In a battle, approx 450 reciters were killed. Umar(RA) the second caliph of Islamic history, but at that time a friend to first caliph of Islam Abu-Bakr(RA) noticed this and came to Abu-Bakr(RA) and said that Qura'an must be compiled in one book format. Abu-Bakr(RA) refused, arguing that he(RA) would not do something what prophet haven't done. Umar(RA) and Abu-Bakr(RA) discussed until Allah(SWT) opened up the logic to Abu-Bakr(RA).
Abu-Bakr(RA) then appointed Zaid Bin Thabit (RA) (read Zayd bin Sabit(RA) ) Zaid(RA) also refused, arguing the same, Abu-Bakr(RA) discussed until Allah(SWT) opened up the logic to Zaid(RA). Zaid(RA)'s words were something like "By Allah(SWT) if Abu-Bakr(RA) had ordered me to move Uhad ( a famous mountain ) from one place to another, that would have been easy for me to do rather than this task. "
Qura'an is compiled in one book format after the prophet's death, before that, prophet instructed specifically assigned companions(RA) to write it down upon every revelation, such companion(RA) is called Katib-e-Wahi.
In a battle, approx 450 reciters were killed. Umar(RA) the second caliph of Islamic history, but at that time a friend to first caliph of Islam Abu-Bakr(RA) noticed this and came to Abu-Bakr(RA) and said that Qura'an must be compiled in one book format. Abu-Bakr(RA) refused, arguing that he(RA) would not do something what prophet haven't done. Umar(RA) and Abu-Bakr(RA) discussed until Allah(SWT) opened up the logic to Abu-Bakr(RA).
Abu-Bakr(RA) then appointed Zaid Bin Thabit (RA) (read Zayd bin Sabit(RA) ) Zaid(RA) also refused, arguing the same, Abu-Bakr(RA) discussed until Allah(SWT) opened up the logic to Zaid(RA). Zaid(RA)'s words were something like "By Allah(SWT) if Abu-Bakr(RA) had ordered me to move Uhad ( a famous mountain ) from one place to another, that would have been easy for me to do rather than this task. "
08/10/2009
Fawad
In short, Zaid(RA) started gathering it from Katibeen(RA) ( plural of Katib) and from different Hafiz( the one who has memorised whole of Qura'an ) companions(RA) , and Umar(RA) was appointed incharge, Zaid(RA) followed four steps while compilation Qura'an in one place :
1. First he(RA) verified the verse with his own memory as he(RA) was Hafiz himself(RA).
2. Umar(RA) who was himself a Hafiz, verified it, himself(RA).
3. Then, before the verse could be accepted, the two reliable witnesses had to testify that it was written in the presence of Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
4. After that, written verses were collated with the collections of different Companions.
Utmost care was taken while keeping in view what prophet ordered according to Allah(SWT)'s Will, as what to write where in which Surah.
Please note, this has eliminated all the chances of alteration for rest of the history.
Regards.
1. First he(RA) verified the verse with his own memory as he(RA) was Hafiz himself(RA).
2. Umar(RA) who was himself a Hafiz, verified it, himself(RA).
3. Then, before the verse could be accepted, the two reliable witnesses had to testify that it was written in the presence of Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
4. After that, written verses were collated with the collections of different Companions.
Utmost care was taken while keeping in view what prophet ordered according to Allah(SWT)'s Will, as what to write where in which Surah.
Please note, this has eliminated all the chances of alteration for rest of the history.
Regards.
08/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Utmost care was taken while keeping in view what prophet ordered according to Allah(SWT)'s Will, as what to write where in which Surah.
Please note, this has eliminated all the chances of alteration for rest of the history.
So sweet!! A history of compilation of Quran and an end-note reassuring nothing is undisputed and Unaltered in Quran. (That too without any references, remarkable!)
Not a single word about the hadith which I quoted to you.
09/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Yes I intentionally didn't put anything for the Hadith.
The reason is simple. The hadith has nothing to do with compilation of Qura'an, its one companion's objection on recitation of Qura'an by some people, which is corrected by compilation.
About references, you don't need any. Just believe what I say as truth because I don't lie, or do your own research about it. Arrogence? Yes. Truth? Yes again.
Regards.
The reason is simple. The hadith has nothing to do with compilation of Qura'an, its one companion's objection on recitation of Qura'an by some people, which is corrected by compilation.
About references, you don't need any. Just believe what I say as truth because I don't lie, or do your own research about it. Arrogence? Yes. Truth? Yes again.
Regards.
09/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
The hadith has nothing to do with compilation of Qura'an, its one companion's objection on recitation of Qura'an by some people, which is corrected by compilation.
Not at all. The Hadith draws different version of the verse of 'Wallayli..' from a leading companion of Prophet. This got everything to do with your claim 'Quran Undisputed and Unaltered'
About references, you don't need any. Just believe what I say as truth because I don't lie, or do your own research about it. Arrogence? Yes. Truth? Yes again.
You had said in MWI:-
"See my sister? We try to guide our Muslim brothers and sisters by answering Hawking's misunderstood concepts about Islam...."
Arrogance and lack of sources...that's all you've got.
Truth?
Ready to swallow your words?
"The reason is to show my Muslim brothers and sisters the reality, how world media is describing Islam today, how much selective stuff is taken out of context and shown to world, just to make people think Islam is nothing but a dangerous religion."
09/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
I stand by every word I said.
You need to understand, after that compilation was made, all of such disputes were eliminated. Besides, whatever I have written is not some hidden fact at all, any student of Islam can tell you that, since its in Islamic courses everywhere. Just Google the words "Compilation of Qura'an" and see results.
And yes, you are nothing to me, but only a study object, call it arrogance if you like, but logically speaking that's what you are to me. As a human being yes, I would help you had you been in any sort of trouble in real life, if I could, but as a person online, story is different.
Regards.
You need to understand, after that compilation was made, all of such disputes were eliminated. Besides, whatever I have written is not some hidden fact at all, any student of Islam can tell you that, since its in Islamic courses everywhere. Just Google the words "Compilation of Qura'an" and see results.
And yes, you are nothing to me, but only a study object, call it arrogance if you like, but logically speaking that's what you are to me. As a human being yes, I would help you had you been in any sort of trouble in real life, if I could, but as a person online, story is different.
Regards.
09/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
You need to understand, after that compilation was made, all of such disputes were eliminated
That's your opinion not of the companions. Compilation resulted in a mushaf not in an undisputed Quran.
There are other instances where companions complained that some verses had gone missing!! Wanna know about it?
Besides, whatever I have written is not some hidden fact at all, any student of Islam can tell you that, since its in Islamic courses everywhere. Just Google the words "Compilation of Qura'an" and see results.
Any student of Islam would say that the prophet is illiterate, is that true?
Any student of Islam would say that People in the ancient lived longer than modern men,, is that true?
Any student of Islam would say that Quran has scientific miracles, is that true?
I know the compilation story and wanna check whether that report is more credible than the Hadith I quoted.
Quote the 'Kitaab'. You accused of me of having no knowledge. Let me see your colors.
And yes, you are nothing to me, but only a study object, call it arrogance if you like, but logically speaking that's what you are to me. As a human being yes, I would help you had you been in any sort of trouble in real life, if I could, but as a person online, story is different.
I can sense the anger and frustration by the debunking of your lies. Arrogance is the precursor to the eventual downfall. It's all your fault.
You messed up with the wrong person!!!
09/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
The hadith is about a specific matter.
That hadith is between two companions of prophet, where they are quoting a verse and that hadith is telling which verse is correct. If you see Qura'an, you'll find that same verse there. Besides approx twelve years after compilation when Arab world spread a bit wider, the Qura'an was punctuated according to dialect of Makkah since that was the dialect of prophet. All other versions written in other dialects were burned.
This again, eliminated the possibility of two different dialects of Qura'an.
You are failing to see that I am a logical person, not an emotional one.
Besides, you are not the first one I met, who came with all the media feeding and thinks he / she can refute Islam, they came and went, but I am also quite sure you are not the last one I am going to see. Again, that 'call it arrogance' was for anyone who sees things emotionally, not logically. You Hawkings, just proved to be emotional by picking up that word.
Regards.
That hadith is between two companions of prophet, where they are quoting a verse and that hadith is telling which verse is correct. If you see Qura'an, you'll find that same verse there. Besides approx twelve years after compilation when Arab world spread a bit wider, the Qura'an was punctuated according to dialect of Makkah since that was the dialect of prophet. All other versions written in other dialects were burned.
This again, eliminated the possibility of two different dialects of Qura'an.
You are failing to see that I am a logical person, not an emotional one.
Besides, you are not the first one I met, who came with all the media feeding and thinks he / she can refute Islam, they came and went, but I am also quite sure you are not the last one I am going to see. Again, that 'call it arrogance' was for anyone who sees things emotionally, not logically. You Hawkings, just proved to be emotional by picking up that word.
Regards.
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09/10/2009
Hawking
The hadith is about a specific matter.
About the Sura 'Wallayli....'
That hadith is between two companions of prophet, where they are quoting a verse and that hadith is telling which verse is correct.
Which one is correct? the present one or the Abdullah's one?
If you see Qura'an, you'll find that same verse there.
Present version
--------------------
92:1 Waallayli idha yaghsha
92:2 Waalnnahari idha tajalla
92:3 Wama khalaqa aldhdhakara waalontha
Abdullah's version
----------------------
92:1 Waallayli idha yaghsha
92:2 Wa dhdhakara wal untha
Now who's lying now?
Besides approx twelve years after compilation when Arab world spread a bit wider, the Qura'an was punctuated according to dialect of Makkah since that was the dialect of prophet. All other versions written in other dialects were burned.
Just the problem of dialect? One dialect has a full verse missing and another one's half chopped off!!
If this just about a dialect problem, think about the burned ones!!
Read the Hadith carefully(preferably the Arabic version).
This again, eliminated the possibility of two different dialects of Qura'an.
Any more of these jokes?
You are failing to see that I am a logical person, not an emotional one.
Yeah, an arrogant yet logical person who never lies !!
09/10/2009
Hawking
(cont...d)
Besides, you are not the first one I met, who came with all the media feeding and thinks he / she can refute Islam, they came and went, but I am also quite sure you are not the last one I am going to see.
Of course. May be Abullah the companion would also be a media spin machine!!
Again, that 'call it arrogance' was for anyone who sees things emotionally, not logically. You Hawkings, just proved to be emotional by picking up that word.
It wasn't me who coined the term in here. It's you. Blame yourself!!
09/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Whatever went in Qura'an is correct.
So we can safely see Qura'an and disregard anything else. About any hadith, we have a rule of checking Qura'an first for anything, so if Qura'an has something else, then surely that is more credible.
Calling anything as joke won't help you at all. Also, please note, I already said, that 'call it arrogance' I put there for emotional persons. You responded, its not a matter of blaming anyone, its a matter of logical and emotional difference. I am not an emotional person so I can test other's personality, a simple check was put by me and you tested positive for emotional person, leave that test, I got what I wanted to know about my study object, it can help me understand you better, what are you fussing about then?
Regards.
So we can safely see Qura'an and disregard anything else. About any hadith, we have a rule of checking Qura'an first for anything, so if Qura'an has something else, then surely that is more credible.
Calling anything as joke won't help you at all.
Also, please note, I already said, that 'call it arrogance' I put there for emotional persons. You responded, its not a matter of blaming anyone, its a matter of logical and emotional difference. I am not an emotional person so I can test other's personality, a simple check was put by me and you tested positive for emotional person, leave that test, I got what I wanted to know about my study object, it can help me understand you better, what are you fussing about then?Regards.
09/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Whatever went in Qura'an is correct.
Even though it's disputed and altered!!
So we can safely see Qura'an and disregard anything else.
About any hadith, we have a rule of checking Qura'an first for
anything, so if Qura'an has something else, then surely that
is more credible.
Talk about shooting one's own foot! If you disregard Hadiths
then you have no evidence to show for the compilation of Quran
and it's history.
Even Quran has abrogated itself quiet so often. Remember the
'3 days and 3 nights stuff'?
Calling anything as joke won't help you at all.
You have backtracked from the dialect theory of -"This again,
eliminated the possibility of two different dialects of
Qura'an" and it's officially a joke!!
Also, please note, I already said, that 'call it arrogance' I
put there for emotional persons.
Eh, Is there anybody else in here? Is our topic 'Quran is
undisputed and Unaltered?' or your psychological study?
You responded, its not a matter of blaming anyone, its a
matter of logical and emotional difference.
Rocket science is much easier to decipher than your
statements.
I am not an emotional person so I can test other's
personality, a simple check was put by me and you tested
positive for emotional person, leave that test, I got what I
wanted to know about my study object, it can help me
understand you better, what are you fussing about then?
Boring!! Discuss the topic.
11/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
My statement "Whatever went in Qura'an is correct" is implicity affirming that everything in Qura'an is undisputed and unaltered. So we can ignore the hadith now.
Regards.
Regards.
11/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Alright, let's reject the Hadith, but you have to reject the following statement :-
.........
1. First he(RA) verified the verse with his own memory as he(RA) was Hafiz himself(RA).
2. Umar(RA) who was himself a Hafiz, verified it, himself(RA).
3. Then, before the verse could be accepted, the two reliable witnesses had to testify that it was written in the presence of Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
4. After that, written verses were collated with the collections of different Companions.
That is, if you declare all the Hadiths invalid, you have to withdraw this claim too.
.........
1. First he(RA) verified the verse with his own memory as he(RA) was Hafiz himself(RA).
2. Umar(RA) who was himself a Hafiz, verified it, himself(RA).
3. Then, before the verse could be accepted, the two reliable witnesses had to testify that it was written in the presence of Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
4. After that, written verses were collated with the collections of different Companions.
That is, if you declare all the Hadiths invalid, you have to withdraw this claim too.
12/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Howcome?
They do not have any relation at all. That hadith is just a dialogue between two companions, on the other hand, that compilation is a full process of the Government present at that time. Which took all necessary precautions before and during compilation. I hope you know the difference between a dialogue and an authentic Govt. process.
Regards.
They do not have any relation at all. That hadith is just a dialogue between two companions, on the other hand, that compilation is a full process of the Government present at that time. Which took all necessary precautions before and during compilation. I hope you know the difference between a dialogue and an authentic Govt. process.
Regards.
12/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
They do not have any relation at all. That hadith is just a dialogue between two companions, on the other hand, that compilation is a full process of the Government present at that time. Which took all necessary precautions before and during compilation. I hope you know the difference between a dialogue and an authentic Govt. process.
They have a relation. Both talk about the authenticity of Quran.
The 'dialogue' which involves a highly regarded companion is a Sahih Hadith having credible chain of reporters.
Is that the case of the 'Authentic Govt. compilation'? Show the document and the chain of reporters.
13/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
And we are where you started from.
Here, Google the words "Compilation Of Holy Qura'an" and see results.
Regards.
Here, Google the words "Compilation Of Holy Qura'an" and see results.
Regards.
showing 21-30 of 49
13/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Who said that? 
I stated, we have Qura'an as standard to check the validity if any hadith. If hadith does not conflict with Qura'an then its a true one, simple.
Regards.
I stated, we have Qura'an as standard to check the validity if any hadith. If hadith does not conflict with Qura'an then its a true one, simple.
Regards.
13/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
I stated, we have Qura'an as standard to check the validity if any hadith.
That standard is under dispute. Quran has verses which invalidates other verses in itself.
If hadith does not conflict with Qura'an then its a true one, simple.
Kinda selective approach, right? If you reject a Hadith of Bukhari or Muslim, you are rejecting the whole book. You haven't quoted the Hadith which is about the 'Authentic Government compilation of Quran'.
14/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
That standard is under dispute. Quran has verses which invalidates other verses in itself.
I agree Qura'an has verses which reject other verses in Qura'an. This is where context comes into play, we need to see which verse was revealed when and then we are clear.
If hadith does not conflict with Qura'an then its a true one, simple.
Kinda selective approach, right?
Agreed. We select only Ahadith which are not in conflict with Qura'an.
If you reject a Hadith of Bukhari or Muslim, you are rejecting the whole book.
No, we are rejecting that single hadith only. Because Ahadith were compiled by humans, so human error is there.
You haven't quoted the Hadith which is about the 'Authentic Government compilation of Quran'.
The compilation was done after the death of prophet, so there can't be any hadith, can there be? Hence I said Google the words "Compilation of Holy Qura'an".
Regards.
14/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
I agree Qura'an has verses which reject other verses in Qura'an. This is where context comes into play, we need to see which verse was revealed when and then we are clear.
How do you come to know about the context? By hadiths, right?
If hadith does not conflict with Qura'an then its a true one, simple.
Do that hadith comes in conflict with the Quran? And if yes, how?
Agreed. We select only Ahadith which are not in conflict with Qura'an.
That means that this Hadith is fabricated, right?
No, we are rejecting that single hadith only. Because Ahadith were compiled by humans, so human error is there.
Only this hadith, right? Would you like to change your mind?
The compilation was done after the death of prophet, so there can't be any hadith, can there be? Hence I said Google the words "Compilation of Holy Qura'an".
Yes of course, Hadith includes the statements of companions and the 'companions of companions' too.
14/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Book 017, Hadith Number 4194.
------------------------------
Chapter : Stoning of a married adulterer.
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.
14/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Sahih Muslim
----------------
Book 008, Hadith Number 3421.
------------------------------
Chapter : One suckling or two do not make marriage unlawful.
'Aisha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims).
Book 008, Hadith Number 3422.
------------------------------
Chapter : One suckling or two do not make marriage unlawful.
'Amra reported that she beard 'Aisha (Allah he pleased with her) discussing fosterage which (makes marriage) unlawful; and she ('Aisha) said: There was revealed in the Holy Qur'an ten clear sucklings, and then five clear (sucklings).
17/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Yes of course, Hadith includes the statements of companions and the 'companions of companions' too.
Again, they are statements, not Qura'anic verses, any such statement is to be checked and if the statement is against Qura'an, it is to be rejected. I am repeating it twice now.
I have deleted irrelevant Ahadith, please start a new topic about them, if interested.
Regards.
17/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Yes of course, Hadith includes the statements of companions and the 'companions of companions' too.
Yeah, admitted at last.
Again, they are statements, not Qura'anic verses, any such statement is to be checked and if the statement is against Qura'an, it is to be rejected. I am repeating it twice now.
They are not statements, but proofs; testimonials of people who actually remembered
Quran.
I have deleted irrelevant Ahadith, please start a new topic about them, if interested.
That was the only escape route you can take. By the way how come they are irrelevant?
They are talking about the authenticity of Quran which this thread itself is all about.
Once again, you have proven frustration of debunking of your lies.
And to hide the shame of losing, you deleted my thread as you have to reject while you said 'only one hadith we reject' oath.
Restore my posts or else I lose confidence in you as you would be proven a forger
17/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
I never deleted any of your threads in this community.
Please tell me the name of any threads, I will inshaAllah restore them. Also, I kept on saying from the start, we measure the authenticity of Hadith from Qura'an. Means if Hadith conforms to Qura'an, the Hadith is accepted, we can not reject Qura'an if Hadith is saying something against it, we then have to reject Hadith.
In the hadith you told, only two companions said the words. Whereas the compilation was under to supervision of two of the most authentic of companions of all time, i.e. Abu Bakar(RA) and Umar(RA) the first two caliphs of Muslims. It doesn't end there, they actually formed an extremely cautious mechanism to compile Qura'an, which I have already mentioned in this post. So if any provided hadith contradicts Qura'an, we have to reject that hadith. We have to accept the Qura'an and reject that hadith.
I have repeated it three times now but you are not reading. That is called 'running in circles'.
Also, the two Ahadith are about suckling, start a new thread for them, if interested.
Regards.
Please tell me the name of any threads, I will inshaAllah restore them. Also, I kept on saying from the start, we measure the authenticity of Hadith from Qura'an. Means if Hadith conforms to Qura'an, the Hadith is accepted, we can not reject Qura'an if Hadith is saying something against it, we then have to reject Hadith.
In the hadith you told, only two companions said the words. Whereas the compilation was under to supervision of two of the most authentic of companions of all time, i.e. Abu Bakar(RA) and Umar(RA) the first two caliphs of Muslims. It doesn't end there, they actually formed an extremely cautious mechanism to compile Qura'an, which I have already mentioned in this post. So if any provided hadith contradicts Qura'an, we have to reject that hadith. We have to accept the Qura'an and reject that hadith.
I have repeated it three times now but you are not reading. That is called 'running in circles'.
Also, the two Ahadith are about suckling, start a new thread for them, if interested.
Regards.
17/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Whereas the compilation was under to supervision of two of the most authentic of companions of all time, i.e. Abu Bakar(RA) and Umar(RA) the first two caliphs of Muslims. It doesn't end there, they actually formed an extremely cautious mechanism to compile Qura'an, which I have already mentioned in this post.
And I had repeated more than 3 times to provide evidence for that. Is there any?
Now who's running circles? You or me?
Please tell me the name of any threads, I will inshaAllah restore them.
It wasn't threads, but posts. I typed in wrong.
Now would you restore it or what?
Also, the two Ahadith are about suckling, start a new thread for them, if interested.
That wasn't about 'suckling' but the 'verse about suckling' which is missing now.
Quite belong to this thread, isn't it?
showing 31-40 of 49
20/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
I am just enjoying seeing things get repeated
You not just enjoy watching the repetition, but you do repeat yourself without any reference to show and accuse others of repeating !!
21/10/2009
♥ IslamForever ♥
@ Hawking
Masha Allah
Dear, I salute you & congratulate you on you being an educated Non Muslim reg. Islam, who is able to criticize Islam with Knowledge & Respect - and not through usage of Abuse etc. Coming to the topic now, Brother Fawad had done a great job in trying to convey his part. What I understand is being missed, is the idea that Ahadith that do NOT go hand in hand with Quran, are also accepted. However, not all of them are accepted to be authentic. They can be labeled as weak or any other types, depending on different factors.
Are we in agreement, dear? :D
Will cover later, then.
Insha'Allah
Masha Allah
Dear, I salute you & congratulate you on you being an educated Non Muslim reg. Islam, who is able to criticize Islam with Knowledge & Respect - and not through usage of Abuse etc. Coming to the topic now, Brother Fawad had done a great job in trying to convey his part. What I understand is being missed, is the idea that Ahadith that do NOT go hand in hand with Quran, are also accepted. However, not all of them are accepted to be authentic. They can be labeled as weak or any other types, depending on different factors.
Are we in agreement, dear? :D
Will cover later, then.
Insha'Allah
21/10/2009
Fawad
AA
@Brother Islam Forever
JazakAllah brother, just a clarification. The ones which do not go hand in hand are the unique decisions which prophet made at the spot. I am talking about the Ahadith which are related to basic Islamic orders, on which there must be no contradiction between Hadith and Qura'an, or else we have to reject Hadith, because we can't reject Qura'an based on any Hadith.
Wassalaam
21/10/2009
Hawking
@ Islam forever
Setting aside the arguments, Fawad still didn't submit any evidence for the 'story of compilation' of Quran(Which would be a document or Hadith !!).
21/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Just google the words "Compilation of Qura'an".
I am posting a Bukhari Hadith, but Googling will help you learn more.
Regards.
I am posting a Bukhari Hadith, but Googling will help you learn more.
Regards.
21/10/2009
Fawad
Compilation of Qura'an
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:
Who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar.
Who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar.
21/10/2009
Fawad
So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):--
"Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128)
The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.
That briefly what I have narrated but my narration contains different researches and details from different Ahadith, so that is why I stated, Google the words "Compilation of Qura'an".
Regards.
showing 41-49 of 49
21/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Sorry, forgot to put the reference.
Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201.
Regards.
Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201.
Regards.
21/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Oh, finally!!
Anyway here is your earlier claim:-
. First he(RA) verified the verse with his own memory as he(RA) was Hafiz himself(RA).
2. Umar(RA) who was himself a Hafiz, verified it, himself(RA).
3. Then, before the verse could be accepted, the two reliable witnesses had to testify that it was written in the presence of Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
4. After that, written verses were collated with the collections of different Companions.
Utmost care was taken while keeping in view what prophet ordered according to Allah(SWT)'s Will, as what to write where in which Surah.
Verifications, two-witness principle and comparisons of compilation are not in the Hadith.
Anyway here is your earlier claim:-
. First he(RA) verified the verse with his own memory as he(RA) was Hafiz himself(RA).
2. Umar(RA) who was himself a Hafiz, verified it, himself(RA).
3. Then, before the verse could be accepted, the two reliable witnesses had to testify that it was written in the presence of Prophet Muhammad(SAW).
4. After that, written verses were collated with the collections of different Companions.
Utmost care was taken while keeping in view what prophet ordered according to Allah(SWT)'s Will, as what to write where in which Surah.
Verifications, two-witness principle and comparisons of compilation are not in the Hadith.
22/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Verifications, two-witness principle and comparisons of compilation are not in the Hadith.
Can I write it like this:
Verifications, two-witness principle and comparisons of compilation are not in this Hadith.
I compiled that reply almost two years ago Hawkings, I am busy these days so can't do lengthy research again. Either believe me or Google the words "Compilation of Qura'an" and get answers.
Regards.
22/10/2009
Hawking
I compiled that reply almost two years ago Hawkings, I am busy these days so can't do lengthy research again. Either believe me or Google the words "Compilation of Qura'an" and get answers.
'the Hadith' means the Hadith which you quoted last. Anyway, it doesn't matter you had done or not done it two years ago, but we need solid references as proof
23/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
I fail to understand, why don't you Google it?
Are you afraid you'll find what I am saying is correct and then have to accept that I was right all along?
Regards.
Are you afraid you'll find what I am saying is correct and then have to accept that I was right all along?
Regards.
23/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
I fail to understand, why don't you Google it?
Are you afraid you'll find what I am saying is correct and then have to accept that I was right all along?
Then why we have this thread if all can be resolved by Googling?
Why can't you Google it and present the references here?
Are you afraid? Or is it the case that there are no references at all?
23/10/2009
Hawking
@ Islam forever
Solid references such as (Besides Bukhari) you mean?
Put any one single reference first. Fawad didn't do even that. You can read through the whole debate and can see for your self.
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