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30/09/2009
Hawking
Quran really has miracles???
There are a lot of 'supposed' miracles of Quran circulating throughout the internet.
Name any one among them which is true.

30/09/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
No premature closure of this thread unless each and every single 'miracle' is debunked with solid evidence. Agreed?
The ball is in your court. Let's see who spreading lies and who don't.
The ball is in your court. Let's see who spreading lies and who don't.

30/09/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
The reason is to show my Muslim brothers and sisters the reality, how world media is describing Islam today, how much selective stuff is taken out of context and shown to world, just to make people think Islam is nothing but a dangerous religion.
You select the stuff. No media harassment.

01/10/2009
Fawad
@Topic
Yes Qura'an has miracles. 
Since you addressed it to me so I am going to be the only one answering. For me numbers and statistical wonders circulating internet are just by-products, for me, the words and effectiveness of whole of Qura'an in its entirety is a miracle. Period.
Regards.

Since you addressed it to me so I am going to be the only one answering. For me numbers and statistical wonders circulating internet are just by-products, for me, the words and effectiveness of whole of Qura'an in its entirety is a miracle. Period.
Regards.

01/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
For me numbers and statistical wonders circulating internet are just by-products
Not just bye-products, but knock-offs. All of them.
Any 'miracle' to show?

01/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Yes, whole of Qura'an.
Go and get a book even remotely similar in effectiveness than Qura'an.
Regards.
Go and get a book even remotely similar in effectiveness than Qura'an.

Regards.

01/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Go and get a book even remotely similar in effectiveness than Qura'an.
Every book is unique in itself. We can't make subjective comparisons among them.

01/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Ok sure. 
So what kind of comparisons you'd like to make? If not subjective? What else is there in a book than subjective writings? Get a grip Hawkings, I think you are losing it. LOL
Regards.

So what kind of comparisons you'd like to make? If not subjective? What else is there in a book than subjective writings? Get a grip Hawkings, I think you are losing it. LOL

Regards.

01/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Ok sure.
Thanks for the agreement. You can't compare the 'Harry potter' and ' A brief history of time' in that way.
So what kind of comparisons you'd like to make? If not subjective?
We are talking about the 'Miracles of Quran' not 'comparison between books'.
What else is there in a book than subjective writings?
Do you mean to say that the Quran( Which is a book as you said) has only subjective writings?
I can claim that the Harry potter book itself is a miracle just like you did. Does that make sense?
Get a grip Hawkings, I think you are losing it. LOL
Still no miracle quoted from you after so many posts. Who's losing now? Time to pull your trump card- "This thread is now closed any further postings would result in a permanent ban automatically"

01/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Oh, "Get a grip Hawkings, I think you are losing it." is an English phrase, here the word "losing" doesn't mean "getting defeated", it means "not grasping my concept". Sorry, I thought you knew it, kind of end the fun part in that.
Also, I told you, whole of Qura'an in itself is a miracle for me. Qura'an means "to be read repeatedly" and yes we never get tired of reading it subhanAllah. Yes its a book.
Regards.
Also, I told you, whole of Qura'an in itself is a miracle for me. Qura'an means "to be read repeatedly" and yes we never get tired of reading it subhanAllah. Yes its a book.

Regards.
Next up is the 'miraculous rhythm' of Quran. I wonder what readers of Abhigyanshakutalam have to say about it. Beautiful certainly, but they do not take the book as a miracle. Actually many old books, some mauch larger than Quran have the same poetic rhythm. Interestingly, after this he asks Hawking to come up with Quran's miracles and disprove them herself. ?? Hawking took the offer.
showing 11-20 of 35

01/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Qura'an means "to be read repeatedly"
'You are losing it' can take different meaning depending upon the circumstances. I thought Qur'an means '(one)to be read'.
Still no miracle. I'm waiting............

02/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Nope, the actual meanings of Qura'an is one to be read repeatedly, which is in Arabic sense.
Still no miracle. I'm waiting............
Told you, whole of Qura'an, in its entirety is a miracle.
Regards.
Still no miracle. I'm waiting............
Told you, whole of Qura'an, in its entirety is a miracle.

Regards.

02/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Nope, the actual meanings of Qura'an is one to be read repeatedly, which is in Arabic sense.
Not in 'Arabic sense', but in 'Arabic language'.
Told you, whole of Qura'an, in its entirety is a miracle.
The onus of explanation is on you.

03/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
The explanation of it as a miracle is bit difficult for me, let me try.
Where to start Hawkings? SubhanAllah the rhythm of its verses, the effectiveness of its chapter, the narrative styles, the variation in pace of certain incidents, the emphasis on certain matters but in a way you can never get bored, the open challenge to readers, the richness of language used and the mesmerizing power of wordings to the reader are to name a few.
Karin Armstrong writes in Muhammad(SAW) that the sheer narrations is enough to send sensations and soul-touching waves down the spine. She even being a non-Muslim, is not far from the truth in my view.
Regards.
Where to start Hawkings? SubhanAllah the rhythm of its verses, the effectiveness of its chapter, the narrative styles, the variation in pace of certain incidents, the emphasis on certain matters but in a way you can never get bored, the open challenge to readers, the richness of language used and the mesmerizing power of wordings to the reader are to name a few.
Karin Armstrong writes in Muhammad(SAW) that the sheer narrations is enough to send sensations and soul-touching waves down the spine. She even being a non-Muslim, is not far from the truth in my view.
Regards.

03/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Where to start Hawkings? SubhanAllah the rhythm of its verses.....
Right, start with the 'rhythm of the verses'.

04/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
I knew my post would go over your head. 
I can't write whole of Qura'an here, neither its transliteration. The rhythm of verses is everywhere in Qura'an. Go and read it please, instead of asking.
Regards.

I can't write whole of Qura'an here, neither its transliteration. The rhythm of verses is everywhere in Qura'an. Go and read it please, instead of asking.
Regards.

04/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
I knew my post would go over your head.
Make it get into my head !
I can't write whole of Qura'an here, neither its transliteration. The rhythm of verses is everywhere in Qura'an. Go and read it please, instead of asking.
I can read it anytime. Why ask you on the first place? I posted a topic asking whether there is any miracle in Quran or not. You replied by saying that the whole of Quran is a miracle. As long as you don't prove it, your claim is invalid.

04/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
No Hawkings, you are mistaken. 
You are forgetting one thing, this is a Muslim community and I have let you stay here for nothing but study purposes, so that when you claim things we believe as true, the burden of proof is on you to try to discredit them. The same has happened in other two threads as well. As soon as you were discredited, I closed the threads to stop your ego to spoil the resuts. The same will happen here inshaAllah, as soon as you come up with any 'claims' of Qura'an not being a miracle, you'll be discredited.
Remember, I am not going to give you any 'numerical' wonders' to show off, I have already told you to read Qura'an to know why its a miracle. So don't expect the usual stuff, you made a claim Qura'an is not a miracle, so either prove your claim or accept its a miracle.
Regards.

You are forgetting one thing, this is a Muslim community and I have let you stay here for nothing but study purposes, so that when you claim things we believe as true, the burden of proof is on you to try to discredit them. The same has happened in other two threads as well. As soon as you were discredited, I closed the threads to stop your ego to spoil the resuts. The same will happen here inshaAllah, as soon as you come up with any 'claims' of Qura'an not being a miracle, you'll be discredited.
Remember, I am not going to give you any 'numerical' wonders' to show off, I have already told you to read Qura'an to know why its a miracle. So don't expect the usual stuff, you made a claim Qura'an is not a miracle, so either prove your claim or accept its a miracle.
Regards.

04/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Remember, I am not going to give you any 'numerical' wonders' to show off, I have already told you to read Qura'an to know why its a miracle. So don't expect the usual stuff, you made a claim Qura'an is not a miracle, so either prove your claim or accept its a miracle.
You are asking me to disprove "there is a cat in basket" while the basket is empty. It's upon others to come up with miracles not me. If nobody can bring up a single 'Miracle', the thread is closed.
You still have no 'Miracle' to show.
Some replies on this page have been deleted or are under review.
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05/10/2009
Hawking
@ ...Sa
Zakir Naik claimed- "Quran states that the earth's shape is like an egg" [sic].
This was apparently to dispute the argument that the earth in Quran is flat.
The change in the verse was like this:-
And the earth, moreover, hath He made egg shaped.” [Al-Qur’an 79:30]
http://www.institutealislam.com/the-qur

05/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Please note: If Sister Eternal saw someone as attacking anyone personally, she can say it, you are not to give decisions here.
You are asking me to disprove "there is a cat in basket" while the basket is empty. It's upon others to come up with miracles not me. If nobody can bring up a single 'Miracle', the thread is closed.
You still have no 'Miracle' to show.
Lets stop this ping pong game, shall we?
Firstly, I don't agree fully with Zakir Naik anyway, because he hasn't translated the Ayah correctly, this is exactly why I don't give such 'numerical' or 'scientific miracles' from Qura'an. The real translation for ayah is And the earth, He expanded it after that. - 79:30 - ShakirSo no, Zakir Naik is mistaken, none of the four most authentic translators of Qura'an called expansion as egg shaped. But yes, science does tell us that during and after creation of Earth, it is spinning, its spinning makes it expand towards the poles, so there you go. Therefore, as I stated earlier for me, whole of Qura'an is a miracle. Not just one or two Aya'at.
Anyway, as I said and what bro Sa has also asked now, please provide what you think is not miraculous about Qura'an. Instead of asking us. Told you, this is different than your regular threads, here you have to come up with an idea and disprove that. You named the topic 'Qura'an really has miracles???' so come up with all the statements you've read so far as miracles of Qura'an and try to disprove them yourself. Don't ask us, we know Qura'an is a miracle and asking you to read it to realise it.
Please note:
No repetition of asking us to show anything, please list what you think are claimed as miracles of Qura'an and disprove them. Any more posts from you asking us to 'show' anything to you, and I will inshaAllah delete this thread.
Regards.
You are asking me to disprove "there is a cat in basket" while the basket is empty. It's upon others to come up with miracles not me. If nobody can bring up a single 'Miracle', the thread is closed.
You still have no 'Miracle' to show.
Lets stop this ping pong game, shall we?
Firstly, I don't agree fully with Zakir Naik anyway, because he hasn't translated the Ayah correctly, this is exactly why I don't give such 'numerical' or 'scientific miracles' from Qura'an. The real translation for ayah is And the earth, He expanded it after that. - 79:30 - ShakirSo no, Zakir Naik is mistaken, none of the four most authentic translators of Qura'an called expansion as egg shaped. But yes, science does tell us that during and after creation of Earth, it is spinning, its spinning makes it expand towards the poles, so there you go. Therefore, as I stated earlier for me, whole of Qura'an is a miracle. Not just one or two Aya'at.
Anyway, as I said and what bro Sa has also asked now, please provide what you think is not miraculous about Qura'an. Instead of asking us. Told you, this is different than your regular threads, here you have to come up with an idea and disprove that. You named the topic 'Qura'an really has miracles???' so come up with all the statements you've read so far as miracles of Qura'an and try to disprove them yourself. Don't ask us, we know Qura'an is a miracle and asking you to read it to realise it.
Please note:
No repetition of asking us to show anything, please list what you think are claimed as miracles of Qura'an and disprove them. Any more posts from you asking us to 'show' anything to you, and I will inshaAllah delete this thread.
Regards.

05/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Alright, I've given you the chance to give me a miracle but you have no miracle to show.
Not even the Zakir Naik-Harun Yahya types.
You asked me to quote a verse 'without a miracle' and here we go...
9:36 (Y. Ali) The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.
Any 'miracle' in there?

05/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Sorry Hawkings, I asked you to post what do you think is not miraculous about Qura'an. So please pay attention to what is asked of you.
Anyway going your way, the said Ayah is miraculous in not one but two ways.
Firstly, its miraculous in the sense that it prevented fighting in advance, because Arabs were coming to Makkah for Hajj and they had inner differences so this Ayah prevented any ongoing conflict by banning any fighting in those four months. So now All Arabia could get together and perform Hajj without any fear.
Secondly, its miraculous in the sense that Allah(SWT) Set 12 months as His(SWT) Choice and up till now, not 11 or 13, but its 12 months, whether its Gregorian, Chinese or Lunar Islamic calendar.
So, you did opposite to what any ordinary Muslim would do, he would post an Ayah and claim its a miracle, you posted an Ayah and claimed its not miracle. Things don't work like that.
So again, not an Ayah or a verse quoting something, but what you think is not miraculous about Qura'an.
Regards.
Anyway going your way, the said Ayah is miraculous in not one but two ways.

Firstly, its miraculous in the sense that it prevented fighting in advance, because Arabs were coming to Makkah for Hajj and they had inner differences so this Ayah prevented any ongoing conflict by banning any fighting in those four months. So now All Arabia could get together and perform Hajj without any fear.
Secondly, its miraculous in the sense that Allah(SWT) Set 12 months as His(SWT) Choice and up till now, not 11 or 13, but its 12 months, whether its Gregorian, Chinese or Lunar Islamic calendar.
So, you did opposite to what any ordinary Muslim would do, he would post an Ayah and claim its a miracle, you posted an Ayah and claimed its not miracle. Things don't work like that.

Regards.

05/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
Firstly, its miraculous in the sense that it prevented fighting in advance, because Arabs were coming to Makkah for Hajj and they had inner differences so this Ayah prevented any ongoing conflict by banning any fighting in those four months. So now All Arabia could get together and perform Hajj without any fear.
In case you don't know, the 'sacred 4 months' are in place way before prophet Muhammed's arrival at the scene.
Secondly, its miraculous in the sense that Allah(SWT) Set 12 months as His(SWT) Choice and up till now, not 11 or 13, but its 12 months, whether its Gregorian, Chinese or Lunar Islamic calendar.
The 12 months are not predetermined, its because there are 12 lunar months in a solar year. Most of the civilizations followed that by counting not by divine revelation.
Note that the Mayans used the calendar having eighteen months of twenty days each plus a period of five days ("nameless days").
Also note that millions of years ago, there were just 11 months in a solar year.
So, you did opposite to what any ordinary Muslim would do, he would post an Ayah and claim its a miracle, you posted an Ayah and claimed its not miracle. Things don't work like that. So again, not an Ayah or a verse quoting something, but what you think is not miraculous about Qura'an.
Just like what you think when anybody say that the Harry potter book is a miracle.
You would ask 'why?'. Then the reply would be 'the whole book'. What would you say?
Anybody can believe that a book is a miracle, but it is not the proof itself.

05/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Again, you are running after Aya'at and I won't let you, remember, we are not going that way.
I know about sacred months Hawkings, I am saying Qura'an stamped them as necessary, some tribes used to prolong, some didn't observe.
Also, I know about 11 months, but when Allah(SWT) stated in Qura'an He(SWT) liked it to be 12, so it were 12 afterwards, didn't they?
Now, about your statements:
Just like what you think when anybody say that the Harry potter book is a miracle.
You would ask 'why?'. Then the reply would be 'the whole book'. What would you say?
I would not say anything but I would ask him what is in it you find miraculous, if he says rhythm, effectiveness and splendid narrative styles then if he would ask me to go and read it all and find it myself, that's exactly what I would do then. I would simply read the whole book, see for myself all the miraculous claims.
So again, not an Ayah or a verse quoting something, but what you think is not miraculous about Qura'an.
I will inshaAllah close this thread tomorrow instead of deleting it, unless you can bring something, so that it be a reminder that you questioned Qura'an but could not bring anything to support your theory.
Regards.
I know about sacred months Hawkings, I am saying Qura'an stamped them as necessary, some tribes used to prolong, some didn't observe.
Also, I know about 11 months, but when Allah(SWT) stated in Qura'an He(SWT) liked it to be 12, so it were 12 afterwards, didn't they?
Now, about your statements:
Just like what you think when anybody say that the Harry potter book is a miracle.
You would ask 'why?'. Then the reply would be 'the whole book'. What would you say?
I would not say anything but I would ask him what is in it you find miraculous, if he says rhythm, effectiveness and splendid narrative styles then if he would ask me to go and read it all and find it myself, that's exactly what I would do then. I would simply read the whole book, see for myself all the miraculous claims.

So again, not an Ayah or a verse quoting something, but what you think is not miraculous about Qura'an.
I will inshaAllah close this thread tomorrow instead of deleting it, unless you can bring something, so that it be a reminder that you questioned Qura'an but could not bring anything to support your theory.
Regards.

05/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
I would simply read the whole book, see for myself all the miraculous claims.
(a)...and you wouldn't find any miracles. The whole circle is complete.
(b)...and you find the 'miracles'. You would admit that the book of Harry potter is miraculous as Quran.
Choose your option.
Oh, forgot about your trump card which you often pull when you have no ability respond. "Closing the thread tomorrow". Toldya!!!
So the argument of 'International media conspiracy' is all made-up!!
Your statement "We must study him/her in order to see why and how Hawkings had wrong information."
Who's got the wrong information now?

05/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
We'll inshaAllah talk about study and 'trump cards' matters later.
Let me clear something to you now. You asked a hypothetical question based upon my answer to you. So you are not in a position to tell me what I believe as miracle, because no one asked me whether or not Harry Potter is a miracle and I have no desire to prove or disprove them. If I had a desire to check the validity of the claim anyone makes, then I would do what I told you earlier. Then after reading the whole books, I would decide myself instead of asking. Since you have been told about Qura'an as a miracle, you asked the question, you got the answer from me, so go and read whole of Qura'an, come back and tell us why don't you think of it as a miracle?Simple.
Regards.
Let me clear something to you now. You asked a hypothetical question based upon my answer to you. So you are not in a position to tell me what I believe as miracle, because no one asked me whether or not Harry Potter is a miracle and I have no desire to prove or disprove them. If I had a desire to check the validity of the claim anyone makes, then I would do what I told you earlier. Then after reading the whole books, I would decide myself instead of asking. Since you have been told about Qura'an as a miracle, you asked the question, you got the answer from me, so go and read whole of Qura'an, come back and tell us why don't you think of it as a miracle?Simple.

Regards.
After this we have Fawad shifting the burden of proof of Quran's miracle to Hawking's court. The net result is the thread closing declaration by Fawad ... probably indicating that the miracle of Quran exists in dictatorships.
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05/10/2009
Hawking
@ Fawad
why don't you think of it as a miracle? Simple.
The answer is even simpler. Why shouldn't I think Quran as a miracle? If I agree that Quran as a miracle just because you believe it so, you would have to believe that book of Harry potter as a miracle just because another person believes like that.
And that analogy applies to any book too.
If you say that any book can be a miracle by your logic, then the thread is closed

06/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
Read my full line please.
This is getting repetitive and its the last time I am telling you this:
Since you have been told about Qura'an as a miracle, you asked the question, you got the answer from me, so go and read whole of Qura'an, come back after reading it fully and tell us why don't you think of it as a miracle?
Simple.
So no Hawkings, I am not letting you cut the chunks from my statements and skew the meanings of what I stated. Either follow what is suggested since you asked for it, or admit you are simply not interested in knowing it yourself.
Post your answer to everything I have stated in this post and I will inshaAllah decide on that whether or not I have to close the thread.
Regards.
This is getting repetitive and its the last time I am telling you this:
Since you have been told about Qura'an as a miracle, you asked the question, you got the answer from me, so go and read whole of Qura'an, come back after reading it fully and tell us why don't you think of it as a miracle?
Simple.
So no Hawkings, I am not letting you cut the chunks from my statements and skew the meanings of what I stated. Either follow what is suggested since you asked for it, or admit you are simply not interested in knowing it yourself.
Post your answer to everything I have stated in this post and I will inshaAllah decide on that whether or not I have to close the thread.
Regards.

06/10/2009
Hawking
@ Rana
Since you have been told about Qura'an as a miracle, you asked the question, you got the answer from me, so go and read whole of Qura'an, come back after reading it fully and tell us why don't you think of it as a miracle?
Simple.
I had already read it and couldn't find a single 'miracle'. Simple.
The holy-book of Muslims believed to had been revealed in 7th century.
Nothing more than that.
So no Hawkings, I am not letting you cut the chunks from my statements and skew the meanings of what I stated. Either follow what is suggested since you asked for it, or admit you are simply not interested in knowing it yourself.
Not chunks. Full statements. Check with your specs on. I have full interest in knowing the miracle and that's why I posted this thread. But you didn't describe what the miracle is.
Post your answer to everything I have stated in this post and I will inshaAllah decide on that whether or not I have to close the thread.
But I had the full knowledge that you would close this thread from the very beginning as you have no 'Miracle' to show. It's just the case of 'when'.

07/10/2009
Fawad
@Hawkings
I had already read it and couldn't find a single 'miracle'. Simple.
The holy-book of Muslims believed to had been revealed in 7th century.
Nothing more than that.
If we still are going after numerical wonders which you so desperately want me to list so that you can try to refute, then the highlighted line should be enough for you to refrain from that.

Bring any other book, which is as undisputed, unaltered and as extremely preserved as Qura'an, and was revealed in 7th Century. You can't. There is your miracle, if you'd like to call it. But again, for me, all the characteristics of the book itself is what fascinates me and is a miracle for me. But you didn't study Qura'an at all. So for your information, there are predictions in Qura'an as well, which came true during prophet's era, which you would certainly find, had you studied the Qura'an, and that alone would be enough for you to consider Qura'an as miracle. So there you go.
But in my view, you'll keep on coming with 'numerical / statistical / chronological observations' trying to equate them with miracles.Everyone can see you have been given enough time and ample chances to tell us why do you think its not a miracle? Everytime you come up with some numerical observation. Which I said earlier, can be a wondrous thing, but not a miracle for me. This is getting repetitive and frankly, boring now and there is nothing for study here, so I am closing the thread. You may call it a trump card but in fact, you have not studied Qura'an hence can only rely on numerical observations provided to you from sources other than Qura'an itself.
This thread is closed now, anyone posting here will earn a warning and consecutive postings will lead to a ban.
Regards.
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